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i think when you have -- paul ryan is not going to be able to do what mitt romney did. he was the chairman of the budget committee, for goodness sakes. it would be an affront to him to make up all of these numbers. >> let me switch to a different performance this week that got a lot of attention. i had the chance to sit down with a familiar face on this program, arnold schwarzenegger, former governor of california. recent revelations about his personal conduct have hurt his reputation, to say the very least. you have noticed he's been out this week with a new book called "total recall:my unbelievable true story" in which he details what he says are his successes and his failures. governor schwarzenegger, whack welcome back to "meet the press" meet. . >> thank you. it's good to be back again. >> let's start with politics. you're still a high profile voice in the republican party. what do you make of the race? can governor romney win this election? >> i think that the race is wide open. and i think that there's a lot of things that change all the time especially close to
i think when you have -- paul ryan is not going to be able to do what mitt romney did. he was the chairman of the budget committee, for goodness sakes. it would be an affront to him to make up all of these numbers. >> let me switch to a different performance this week that got a lot of attention. i had the chance to sit down with a familiar face on this program, arnold schwarzenegger, former governor of california. recent revelations about his personal conduct have hurt his reputation, to...
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i think when you have paul ryan is not going to be able to do what mitt romney did. he was the chairman of the budget committee for goodness sakes, it would be an affront to him to have make up all of these numbers and so i -- i think you'll kind of have the opposite of what we had before. where president obama got a little wonky and mitt romney got pretty aggressive and high style. joe biden is going to have the style in this debate and ryan is going to be the wonk and the question is whether eel tell the truth on the numbers. >> let me switch gear as little bit to a different performance this week that got a lot of attention. i had a chance to sit down with a familiar face to this program, arnold schwarzenegger, former governor of california, a high-profile figure in the republican party but recent revelations about his personal conduct have hurt his reputation to say the very least. you have noticed he's been out this week with a new book called total recall. my unbelievably true story. in which he details what he says are his successes and his failures. governor
i think when you have paul ryan is not going to be able to do what mitt romney did. he was the chairman of the budget committee for goodness sakes, it would be an affront to him to have make up all of these numbers and so i -- i think you'll kind of have the opposite of what we had before. where president obama got a little wonky and mitt romney got pretty aggressive and high style. joe biden is going to have the style in this debate and ryan is going to be the wonk and the question is whether...
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i think when you have -- paul ryan is not going to be able to do what mitt romney did. he was the chairman of the budget committee, for goodness sakes. it would be an affront to him to make up all of these numbers. >> let me switch to a different performance this week that got a lot of attention. i had the chance to sit down with a familiar face on this program, arnold schwarzenegger, former governor of california. recent revelations about his personal conduct have hurt his reputation, to say the very least. you have noticed he's been out this week with a new book called "total recall:my unbelievable true story" in which he details what he says are his successes and his failures. governor schwarzenegger, whack welcome back to "meet the press" meet. . >> thank you. it's good to be back again. >> let's start with politics. you're still a high profile voice in the republican party. what do you make of the race? can governor romney win this election? >> i think that the race is wide open. and i think that there's a lot of things that change all the time especially close to
i think when you have -- paul ryan is not going to be able to do what mitt romney did. he was the chairman of the budget committee, for goodness sakes. it would be an affront to him to make up all of these numbers. >> let me switch to a different performance this week that got a lot of attention. i had the chance to sit down with a familiar face on this program, arnold schwarzenegger, former governor of california. recent revelations about his personal conduct have hurt his reputation, to...
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and we want to look forward to the next debate, which is biden and ryan. we also want to go inside the numbers with chuck todd for a look at how the campaign is feeling good. the romney campaign, after the first debate, looking at some of the enthusiasm. later, my conversation as i mentioned with arnold schwarzenegger. much more to come with our special panel right after this. >>> "meet the press" is brought to you by the boeing company. we know why we're here. ♪ to connect our forces to what they need, when they need it. ♪ to help troops see danger, before it sees them. ♪ to answer the call of the brave and bring them safely home. [ female announcer ] around the globe, the people of boeing are working together, to support and protect all who serve. that's why we're here. ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you turn an entrepreneur's dream... ♪ into a scooter that talks to the cloud? ♪ or make 70,000 trades a second... ♪ reach one customer at a time? ♪ how do you help doctors turn billions of bytes of shared information... ♪ into a fifth annivers
and we want to look forward to the next debate, which is biden and ryan. we also want to go inside the numbers with chuck todd for a look at how the campaign is feeling good. the romney campaign, after the first debate, looking at some of the enthusiasm. later, my conversation as i mentioned with arnold schwarzenegger. much more to come with our special panel right after this. >>> "meet the press" is brought to you by the boeing company. we know why we're here. ♪ to connect...
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now they're trying to blame the romney/ryan ticket for making this an issue. and with respect to iraq, we have the same position before the withdrawal, which was we agreed with the obama administration. let's have a status of forces agreement to make sure that we secure our gains. the vice president was put in charge of those negotiations by president obama. and he failed to get the agreement. we don't have a status of force agreement because they failed to get one. that's what we are talking about. and when it comes to our veterans, we owe them a great debt of gratitude for what they have done for us, including your son, beau. but we also want to make sure that we don't lose the things that we fought so hard to get. with respect to afghanistan, the 2014 deadline, we agree with the 2014 transition. but what we also want to do is make sure that we're not projecting weakness abroad, and that's what's happening here. this benghazi issue would be a tragedy in and of itself, but unfortunately it's indicative of a broader problem, and that is what we are watching on
now they're trying to blame the romney/ryan ticket for making this an issue. and with respect to iraq, we have the same position before the withdrawal, which was we agreed with the obama administration. let's have a status of forces agreement to make sure that we secure our gains. the vice president was put in charge of those negotiations by president obama. and he failed to get the agreement. we don't have a status of force agreement because they failed to get one. that's what we are talking...
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whereas romney/ryan want to get rid of that. and in manufacturing you've seen for the first time really in years, a significant increase in manufacturing jobs. ronnellny wants to bring back the outsourcing loophole. in fact his largest donor gets a $2.3 billion tax cut under the romney plan. part of that is that he makes 90% of his money overseas, when you think about the auto recovery, romney and obama were in two different positions. when you look at outsourcing, they're in different positions. in manufacturing. for a lot of parts of virginia that don't get quite as much attention. central and southern virginia, the fact that the president has stood up for american manufacturing has been significant. i think you'll see the gender gap. i think you'll see middle class feeling like romney just wants to rig the system a little too much for the high end. >> tom perriello, former democratic congressman, thank you. we want to note that we did invite a surrogate from mitt romney's campaign to join us later. but no one was available on
whereas romney/ryan want to get rid of that. and in manufacturing you've seen for the first time really in years, a significant increase in manufacturing jobs. ronnellny wants to bring back the outsourcing loophole. in fact his largest donor gets a $2.3 billion tax cut under the romney plan. part of that is that he makes 90% of his money overseas, when you think about the auto recovery, romney and obama were in two different positions. when you look at outsourcing, they're in different...
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joe biden simply dismantled the romney/ryan world view. but also talk about how the right wingers are trying to make a big deal out of joe biden's smile. so what? i would have been outright laughing in paul ryan's face. joe biden was fed up and who could blame him? >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> and why is that so? >> because not a single thing he said is accurate. >> this is a bunch of stuff. >> what do you mean a bunch of stuff? >> it's simply inaccurate. >> it's irish. >> thanks for the translation. okay. >> malarkey. a bunch of stuff. i love it. i love it. biden systematically took apart ryan's arguments for less government, let's accountability, let's community. it got so bad, paul ryan was driven to drink. literally. he went back to that cup of water over and over again. by our last count, at least 21 time. what's the matter there, mr. ryan? got a little cotton mouth? last night the romney/ryan effort was exposed as a shield for the extreme far right and vice president biden drove that point home again and ag
joe biden simply dismantled the romney/ryan world view. but also talk about how the right wingers are trying to make a big deal out of joe biden's smile. so what? i would have been outright laughing in paul ryan's face. joe biden was fed up and who could blame him? >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> and why is that so? >> because not a single thing he said is accurate. >> this is a bunch of stuff. >> what do you mean a bunch of stuff? >>...
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because the poll advertise that romney/ryan would put in place would be really detrimental. they are the party of todd akin and the legitimate rape natural body rejection -- it's absurd. >> stephanie: yeah, again, i read the polling earlier, a lot of it is a little bit all over the place. clearly it is tight and the debate did not help, but this is one they are talking about party id, because it is out of whack with all of the other ones. >> yeah i do think what happened was maybe they went in and polled a bunch of people in the days after the debate and the new jobs numbers came out and that pushes it back into the president's favor a little bit. we have so many polls, and it's really difficult day-to-day to tell what is the most trustworthy, and what isn't. and if you take a look at some of the swing state polls, and where the president is consistently leading and demographics, it just doesn't seem like this one poll -- it just doesn't make sense. >> stephanie: do you think the president is going to have a chance to correct all of these -- there's no other way to say it --
because the poll advertise that romney/ryan would put in place would be really detrimental. they are the party of todd akin and the legitimate rape natural body rejection -- it's absurd. >> stephanie: yeah, again, i read the polling earlier, a lot of it is a little bit all over the place. clearly it is tight and the debate did not help, but this is one they are talking about party id, because it is out of whack with all of the other ones. >> yeah i do think what happened was maybe...
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down on stuff that we weren't sure if the romney/ryan ticket is going to stick with. he is in favor of privatizing social security and overturning "roe v. wade" and making abortion criminal. on afghanistan, nobody has pressed them on afghanistan. now we know they are going to stick to the 2014 deadline but they also think that deadline is dangerous and a bad idea. that's the sign of a campaign that hasn't been pressed very much on that issue, that it made so little sense when they had to. >> very quickly, you obviously think biden won, but would you acknowledge that ryan passed the threshold test proving he was a plausible president and vice president if the need arose? >> on everything except foreign policy. i think paul ryan was out of his depth on foreign policy. maybe it wasn't fair to have him with a foreign correspondent moderator and former chair of the senate foreign relations committee there talking about foreign policy. there he bottomed out, and other than that he did just fine. >> we'll see you tonight on msnbc. >> we want to turn and take another perspect
down on stuff that we weren't sure if the romney/ryan ticket is going to stick with. he is in favor of privatizing social security and overturning "roe v. wade" and making abortion criminal. on afghanistan, nobody has pressed them on afghanistan. now we know they are going to stick to the 2014 deadline but they also think that deadline is dangerous and a bad idea. that's the sign of a campaign that hasn't been pressed very much on that issue, that it made so little sense when they had...
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and the problem, you talked about the chameleon nature of mitt romney, paul ryan is not one. he is going to have to hold to these very tough principles. so you're going to have to hear ryan explain his medicare/medicaid policy. and what he has going for him, he didn't seem to do much of a dent, at all. we'll see how the polls go this week. and he is going, president obama, monday, to california for caesar chavez. he signed an executive order to say this is where chavez is buried. it is going to be part of our national park service. >> where -- >> yeah, it is la paz, and he will be there with the widow of caesar cheavez, the widow. and mitt romney screwed up, when he was a let hard on the mexican-american vote. you see president obama making a big play with ken salazar, the hispanic, and the whole clan. watch for the sound bite to be very moving. >> do you think -- >> paul ryan has -- is an intellect, and joe biden is a consummate pro. so i think you will see a really spirited one. so you will have joe biden throwing punches and paul ryan punching back. and in fact, if you're
and the problem, you talked about the chameleon nature of mitt romney, paul ryan is not one. he is going to have to hold to these very tough principles. so you're going to have to hear ryan explain his medicare/medicaid policy. and what he has going for him, he didn't seem to do much of a dent, at all. we'll see how the polls go this week. and he is going, president obama, monday, to california for caesar chavez. he signed an executive order to say this is where chavez is buried. it is going to...
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it is strength in the oval office. >> but one point that biden made, mayor, is calling out ryan and romney, when you hear things like what he was talking about, that there is weakness. do you really want another war? an important question. >> all we see right now is bush-like bluster. that's what we see from them. and it will take us to the exact same place. this contrast in investigations around the original 9/11 attacks, there wasn't openness. there wasn't transparency. there wasn't the kind of honesty. when you look at what we're going through right now, as horrific as it is, we are getting the facts out in two weeks. we're getting it out very quickly. and regarding strength, are you kidding me? the president of the united states through drone strikes and a series of other measures has been stronger than george bush ever was. he is the person, whether you all like it or not, who is the person that brought osama bin laden to justice. that's barack obama. and they may not like his temperament or all of the rest, but alex has to acknowledge, which way would you want this dealt with? the pr
it is strength in the oval office. >> but one point that biden made, mayor, is calling out ryan and romney, when you hear things like what he was talking about, that there is weakness. do you really want another war? an important question. >> all we see right now is bush-like bluster. that's what we see from them. and it will take us to the exact same place. this contrast in investigations around the original 9/11 attacks, there wasn't openness. there wasn't transparency. there...
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of romney-ryan and obama-biden. that's what we're debating tonight. >> why do people watch a vice presidential debate? do they watch it for a policy debate, or do they watch it to see can these guys become president of the united states? >> this stuff is always anecdotal. it's like sports. people have an opinion out of these debates. i think about it more as this month. these few weeks, the debate phase of the campaign. up until now, the entire campaign is about tv ads, surrogates arguing on televis n television, media pundits providing the analysis. and what was striking about last week's debate between governor romney and president obama, first time 90 minutes unfiltered, these two men going face to face, challenging one another. that's what this is about. it's just about suddenly we get to see the two leaders, in this case, the two vps. >> sort of philosophical. just part two of this philosophical debate. >> correct. it's the only moment in the campaign. last week 70 million viewers. this week, who knows how many
of romney-ryan and obama-biden. that's what we're debating tonight. >> why do people watch a vice presidential debate? do they watch it for a policy debate, or do they watch it to see can these guys become president of the united states? >> this stuff is always anecdotal. it's like sports. people have an opinion out of these debates. i think about it more as this month. these few weeks, the debate phase of the campaign. up until now, the entire campaign is about tv ads, surrogates...
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that's not where mitt romney is. so poor paul ryan. he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. >> don't forget big bird there, jonathan. remember governor romney did give us a specific, he's going to get rid of big bird. >> that's impressive. ari, for sheer bravado in the absence of any details, paul ryan surely wins the oscar because he claims six studies prove that their 20% tax cut will be revenue neutral and won't increase the deficit. but i have to tell you, three of those six studies were blog posts or op-eds and one of them was paid for by romney for president, inc. that's the most elegant mendacity i've ever seen, isn't it? >> i would love to have their campaign promote my blog. if each post is a study, you can really get on a roll there. i'm really glad you're spotlighting this, martin, because this is the biggest problem they have on the domestic front. they've outlined these 20% cuts for everyone, that's a 20% cut in taxes for the 1%, and then they've said but don't worry, it's not really going to cut the taxes on the ric
that's not where mitt romney is. so poor paul ryan. he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. >> don't forget big bird there, jonathan. remember governor romney did give us a specific, he's going to get rid of big bird. >> that's impressive. ari, for sheer bravado in the absence of any details, paul ryan surely wins the oscar because he claims six studies prove that their 20% tax cut will be revenue neutral and won't increase the deficit. but i have to tell you, three of those...
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isn't ryan supposed to be the brain of the romney campaign and we're lacking specifics? i mean, wasn't that a poor explanation? >> well, yes, and let me give you his idea of a study. he said there are six studies. three of those six studies are blog posts and one of them is by a research assistant at aei, which is one of the big ideological marketing organizations that pitch you their view of the world just the way companies advertise other products. but blog posts, those are studies that prove things? that's hilarious. >> why doesn't the plan add up? why doesn't his so-called plan for america, the 20% cut, add up? where's the flaw? >> well, it does add up for the very rich. if you listen very carefully to what romney always says, he says he's going to cut rates 20% and then he's going to see to it that those at the top don't pay a larger share of the total tax burden. well, that means that they're going to get a huge decrease in their tax bill. that's the important element. that is the ryan/romney plan, it is to create dynastic wealth which i think would be devastating
isn't ryan supposed to be the brain of the romney campaign and we're lacking specifics? i mean, wasn't that a poor explanation? >> well, yes, and let me give you his idea of a study. he said there are six studies. three of those six studies are blog posts and one of them is by a research assistant at aei, which is one of the big ideological marketing organizations that pitch you their view of the world just the way companies advertise other products. but blog posts, those are studies that...
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romney said today under duress that the romney/ryan position is the romney/ryan position, there's no difference between them. and he said you'll hear more about it at the vice presidential debate tomorrow. i bet you will. joining us now is steve kornacki, co-host of "the cycle." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> the democrats have been aggressive in driving their campaigning on this issue, because they think that's a key issue for locking up the women's vote. with this walkback, this attempted and failed walkback that happened within the last 24 hours from the romney campaign, do you think that's going to have an impact there? >> yeah. there's some interesting data that came out in the last few days which i think is what was initially behind what mitt romney said, taking a more moderate position on abortion. first you had this poll that came out in ohio, showing obama ahead of romney by four. the gender gap in this thing was astounding. among men, romney had a 16-point lead in ohio. among women, 60-38, obama. that is like a 38-point gender gap. i have not seen someth
romney said today under duress that the romney/ryan position is the romney/ryan position, there's no difference between them. and he said you'll hear more about it at the vice presidential debate tomorrow. i bet you will. joining us now is steve kornacki, co-host of "the cycle." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> the democrats have been aggressive in driving their campaigning on this issue, because they think that's a key issue for locking up the women's...
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or are you running and paul ryan as part of the romney/ryan ticket? how much should we expect to hear tonight about the way paul ryan comported himself in the house of representatives? >> well, you know, rachel, mitt romney and paul ryan campaigned all throughout the state of wisconsin during the republican primaries, where mitt romney completely wrapped his arms around paul ryan's policies. paul ryan's budget. i think that is going to be a piece of the discussion tonight and i think that is, you know, part of what the american people need to decide on, whether or not they want a budget that protects tax cuts for those at the top but is cutting education, and veterans and clean energy, innovation, infrastructure, turning medicare into a voucher program. those are the types of choices that the meamerican people have before them and that will be part of the discussion tonight. >> you said earlier today, stephanie, that paul ryan and mitt romney are politicizing the attack in benghazi that killed our ambassador there. the republican national committee re
or are you running and paul ryan as part of the romney/ryan ticket? how much should we expect to hear tonight about the way paul ryan comported himself in the house of representatives? >> well, you know, rachel, mitt romney and paul ryan campaigned all throughout the state of wisconsin during the republican primaries, where mitt romney completely wrapped his arms around paul ryan's policies. paul ryan's budget. i think that is going to be a piece of the discussion tonight and i think that...
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>> mitt romney put paul ryan on the ticket. that's not running away from the plan. >> but i mean -- he didn't embrace the ryan budget. it was too tough for him perhaps? >> correct me if i'm wrong, my understanding governor romney has been complimentary of the ryan budget plan and recognizes that we need to make reforms so that the big entitlement programs will be there for the next generation we need to tighten the belt on discreti discretionary spending. i disagree. >> mitt romney's tax proposals, because he has said that he can cut taxes without blowing up the deficit, without being deficit neutral, and at the same time keep defense spending. >> yeah. >> increase the defense budget. how does that work? >> governor romney said he can lower marginal tax rates and generate offsetting revenue so we don't increase the side of the deficit. >> how do you generate that? >> you reduce the number of write-offs and loopholes in some combinations. >> which would you reduce? he's not been specific. >> he's provided more specificity than t
>> mitt romney put paul ryan on the ticket. that's not running away from the plan. >> but i mean -- he didn't embrace the ryan budget. it was too tough for him perhaps? >> correct me if i'm wrong, my understanding governor romney has been complimentary of the ryan budget plan and recognizes that we need to make reforms so that the big entitlement programs will be there for the next generation we need to tighten the belt on discreti discretionary spending. i disagree. >>...
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the romney/ryan spending plan here. but last night martha raddatz's questioning and joe biden's badgering got paul ryan to disavow this plan altogether saying he does not want an increase at all despite the fact it is what he and mr. romney has been campaigning on. paul ryan broke new ground on saying how and why he and mitt romney would overturn roe v. wade and make abortion criminal. his issue on rape in particular has people going nuts today for obvious reasons. we'll be covering that in future shows. joe biden also dipped paul ryan in tar and rolled him in feathers on the issue of the stimulus. and mr. ryan's supposed principles on that issue. we talked about that moments ago with chris hayes. but there are two things that i think are hugely important to the presidential campaign that happened last night. two things that i, frankly, never thought we would get to. and that we got to and, boy, howdy, is this new territory. first was this. >> you asked, do i feel free? let me put it to you this way. i earned capital in
the romney/ryan spending plan here. but last night martha raddatz's questioning and joe biden's badgering got paul ryan to disavow this plan altogether saying he does not want an increase at all despite the fact it is what he and mr. romney has been campaigning on. paul ryan broke new ground on saying how and why he and mitt romney would overturn roe v. wade and make abortion criminal. his issue on rape in particular has people going nuts today for obvious reasons. we'll be covering that in...
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he was the only guy out there predicting a sweeping romney win. well, today it is senator bill nelson of florida predicting that joe biden will make mincemeat out of paul ryan. it is a dicey game. >> yes, he was spot on -- setting the expectations so high and really came through. talking to partisans on both sides, the job for the vice president tonight is to slow the momentum of governor romney. and ryan at this point, to try to change the dynamic once again, this is going to be a proxy fight, but you know what? paul ryan has a record, as well, and that is something that joe biden wants to exploit here. he will talk about the president and the 47% and talk about ryan as the idea of a lot of conservative thinking, the taxes, and spending. >> all right, david gregory, all part of the team for tonight's coverage of the vice presidential debate beginning tonight, 9 eastern, 6:00 on the west coast here on this nbc station. >>> we turn now to another major story out there today, the meningitis outbreak linked to tainted steroid shots for back pain. the
he was the only guy out there predicting a sweeping romney win. well, today it is senator bill nelson of florida predicting that joe biden will make mincemeat out of paul ryan. it is a dicey game. >> yes, he was spot on -- setting the expectations so high and really came through. talking to partisans on both sides, the job for the vice president tonight is to slow the momentum of governor romney. and ryan at this point, to try to change the dynamic once again, this is going to be a proxy...
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couple of weeks from the romney-ryan campaign. a week ago, we had a presidential debate, mitt romney all of a sudden said there was no $5 trillion cu tax cut. i imagine that will be a topic. paul ryan once said he didn't have time to do the math on the tax cut. openfully tonight over 90 minutes he can do the math for us. >> bret: you even concedeed on the show with the deduction and credits while they haven't listed them specifically it wouldn't $5 trillion. >> here is what i said. he put out a number of tax cuts whether it's the estate tax, lowering everyone's rate by 20%, getting rid of the amt, payroll tax, number of tax cut he put on the table. the sum of the tax cuts is $5 trillion. >> bret: he said in the debate? you capped it, set a cap you could reach it. tax policy center which you cite, campaign cites says that you could reach the number that he is talking about -- >> no, it didn't say that. if you could reach the number -- you could add up the deduction and loopholes to $5 trillion if you raise taxes on the middle class
couple of weeks from the romney-ryan campaign. a week ago, we had a presidential debate, mitt romney all of a sudden said there was no $5 trillion cu tax cut. i imagine that will be a topic. paul ryan once said he didn't have time to do the math on the tax cut. openfully tonight over 90 minutes he can do the math for us. >> bret: you even concedeed on the show with the deduction and credits while they haven't listed them specifically it wouldn't $5 trillion. >> here is what i said....
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ryan may have been a smart pick for romney despite his policy positions, not because of they'll. which is to say, he's been pretty good on the stump, in terms of ginning up enthusiasm. the policy stuff may have been his achille's heel and the campaign stuff a bonus. >> ginning up enthusiasm among republicans, probably -- i don't see where the enthusiasm is for him among independents in the body politic overall. i mean the policy positions he's taken, you know, god love him, at least there's someone in washington who is going to put really hard, specific policy prescriptions on the table, the problem, though, is that they're incredibly unpopular. we've gone from the road map for america's future foote of prosperity to the house budget that the budget that the house passed that they're now all running away from because they now know that the american people don't like the policy prescriptions are there. ryan is young, in great shape, very smart. but when people talk about the specifics and what his vision is, they're not going to like it and that's why tonight is fascinating becaus
ryan may have been a smart pick for romney despite his policy positions, not because of they'll. which is to say, he's been pretty good on the stump, in terms of ginning up enthusiasm. the policy stuff may have been his achille's heel and the campaign stuff a bonus. >> ginning up enthusiasm among republicans, probably -- i don't see where the enthusiasm is for him among independents in the body politic overall. i mean the policy positions he's taken, you know, god love him, at least...